It seems like an interesting question, and bizarrely, one I haven't been able to find the answer to. Of course, it's extremely well-known that the statement that all sets can be well-ordered is equivalent to AC, but looking through the proofs of this, I haven't been able to find a model that says sets can't be ordered at all, and trying it by my own hand, every approach I take seems to lead the notion that an ordering implies an ordering of the power set, and that I can't show. This site is giving me a possible counterexample involving an inaccessible cardinal, but the author doesn't really flesh it out, and since inaccessible cardinals I understand are independent of AC, if that's the counterexample I'd really like to see it fleshed out.
2026-03-29 13:46:47.1774792007
Can all sets be totally ordered (not well-ordered) in ZF?
511 Views Asked by Bumbble Comm https://math.techqa.club/user/bumbble-comm/detail At
1
There are 1 best solutions below
Related Questions in SET-THEORY
- Theorems in MK would imply theorems in ZFC
- What formula proved in MK or Godel Incompleteness theorem
- Proving the schema of separation from replacement
- Understanding the Axiom of Replacement
- Ordinals and cardinals in ETCS set axiomatic
- Minimal model over forcing iteration
- How can I prove that the collection of all (class-)function from a proper class A to a class B is empty?
- max of limit cardinals smaller than a successor cardinal bigger than $\aleph_\omega$
- Canonical choice of many elements not contained in a set
- Non-standard axioms + ZF and rest of math
Related Questions in AXIOM-OF-CHOICE
- Do I need the axiom of choice to prove this statement?
- Canonical choice of many elements not contained in a set
- Strength of $\sf ZF$+The weak topology on every Banach space is Hausdorff
- Example of sets that are not measurable?
- A,B Sets injective map A into B or bijection subset A onto B
- Equivalence of axiom of choice
- Proving the axiom of choice in propositions as types
- Does Diaconescu's theorem imply cubical type theory is non-constructive?
- Axiom of choice condition.
- How does Axiom of Choice imply Axiom of Dependent Choice?
Trending Questions
- Induction on the number of equations
- How to convince a math teacher of this simple and obvious fact?
- Find $E[XY|Y+Z=1 ]$
- Refuting the Anti-Cantor Cranks
- What are imaginary numbers?
- Determine the adjoint of $\tilde Q(x)$ for $\tilde Q(x)u:=(Qu)(x)$ where $Q:U→L^2(Ω,ℝ^d$ is a Hilbert-Schmidt operator and $U$ is a Hilbert space
- Why does this innovative method of subtraction from a third grader always work?
- How do we know that the number $1$ is not equal to the number $-1$?
- What are the Implications of having VΩ as a model for a theory?
- Defining a Galois Field based on primitive element versus polynomial?
- Can't find the relationship between two columns of numbers. Please Help
- Is computer science a branch of mathematics?
- Is there a bijection of $\mathbb{R}^n$ with itself such that the forward map is connected but the inverse is not?
- Identification of a quadrilateral as a trapezoid, rectangle, or square
- Generator of inertia group in function field extension
Popular # Hahtags
second-order-logic
numerical-methods
puzzle
logic
probability
number-theory
winding-number
real-analysis
integration
calculus
complex-analysis
sequences-and-series
proof-writing
set-theory
functions
homotopy-theory
elementary-number-theory
ordinary-differential-equations
circles
derivatives
game-theory
definite-integrals
elementary-set-theory
limits
multivariable-calculus
geometry
algebraic-number-theory
proof-verification
partial-derivative
algebra-precalculus
Popular Questions
- What is the integral of 1/x?
- How many squares actually ARE in this picture? Is this a trick question with no right answer?
- Is a matrix multiplied with its transpose something special?
- What is the difference between independent and mutually exclusive events?
- Visually stunning math concepts which are easy to explain
- taylor series of $\ln(1+x)$?
- How to tell if a set of vectors spans a space?
- Calculus question taking derivative to find horizontal tangent line
- How to determine if a function is one-to-one?
- Determine if vectors are linearly independent
- What does it mean to have a determinant equal to zero?
- Is this Batman equation for real?
- How to find perpendicular vector to another vector?
- How to find mean and median from histogram
- How many sides does a circle have?
I wrote a somewhat technical answer to the question several years ago. The answer is no, and you can find a proof in that link.
Let me not entirely flesh out the whole proof, but instead rely on several well-known examples.
Russell sets, or generally, when you cannot choose from a family of finite sets. Suppose that you have a family of sets, each of them is finite, say of size $2$. Let $A$ be the union of all these sets. If $A$ can be linearly ordered, this provides a uniform linear ordering of all your finite sets (and then some), letting you pick the least member of each of these finite sets.
And indeed, it is consistent that there is a countable set of pairwise disjoint pairs, which does not admit a choice function. Therefore, the union of these pairs cannot be linearly ordered.
Amorphous sets. These are sets which cannot be split into two infinite sets. Clearly their existence contradicts even the most basic principles of choice. If $A$ is an amorphous set, it cannot be linearly ordered. Suppose $<$ was in fact a linear ordering of an amorphous set. Then every point defines a cut, one side of which is finite, and the other is infinite. If all but finitely many points have finitely many predecessors, then this linear ordering is isomorphic to an ordinal of the form $\omega+n$, where $n$ is finite. But then it is countable, so no. If all but finitely many points have infinitely many predecessors, consider the reverse linear ordering and derive a contradiction yet again.
$\mathcal P(\omega)/\rm fin$, the equivalence classes of sets of natural numbers modulo finite changes. This one is trickier, and harder to prove. Andrés Caicedo gave a very good proof on MathOverflow to this fact. In short, if this set can be linearly ordered, there is a set without the Baire Property and a set which is not Lebesgue measurable. Since it is consistent that every set has the Baire Property, or if you're willing to accept inaccessible cardinals into your life, that every set is Lebesgue measurable, it follows that $\mathcal P(\omega)/\rm fin$ is consistently without a linear ordering.
There are many other possible examples, but these are the three "obvious" examples.