It is well-known that $\mathbb Q$ and $\mathbb R$ are elementarily equivalent as ordered sets, but how about their group structure? Are they elementarily equivalent as groups? Or more specifically, does $\mathbb R$ embed into some ultrapower of $\mathbb Q$?
2026-03-25 20:14:19.1774469659
Bumbble Comm
On
Does the group of reals embed into some ultrapower of the rationals?
175 Views Asked by Bumbble Comm https://math.techqa.club/user/bumbble-comm/detail At
2
There are 2 best solutions below
0
Bumbble Comm
On
Use a Hamel basis for $\mathbb{R}$ and send each element $r$ of the basis to the hyperrational $\frac{\lfloor{r}{H}\rfloor}{H}$, where $H$ is a fixed infinite hypernatural.
In fact the map $r\mapsto \lfloor{r}{H}\rfloor$ embeds the additive group of the reals into the ultrapower of the integers.
Related Questions in GROUP-THEORY
- What is the intersection of the vertices of a face of a simplicial complex?
- Group with order $pq$ has subgroups of order $p$ and $q$
- How to construct a group whose "size" grows between polynomially and exponentially.
- Conjugacy class formula
- $G$ abelian when $Z(G)$ is a proper subset of $G$?
- A group of order 189 is not simple
- Minimal dimension needed for linearization of group action
- For a $G$ a finite subgroup of $\mathbb{GL}_2(\mathbb{R})$ of rank $3$, show that $f^2 = \textrm{Id}$ for all $f \in G$
- subgroups that contain a normal subgroup is also normal
- Could anyone give an **example** that a problem that can be solved by creating a new group?
Related Questions in LOGIC
- Theorems in MK would imply theorems in ZFC
- What is (mathematically) minimal computer architecture to run any software
- What formula proved in MK or Godel Incompleteness theorem
- Determine the truth value and validity of the propositions given
- Is this a commonly known paradox?
- Help with Propositional Logic Proof
- Symbol for assignment of a truth-value?
- Find the truth value of... empty set?
- Do I need the axiom of choice to prove this statement?
- Prove that any truth function $f$ can be represented by a formula $φ$ in cnf by negating a formula in dnf
Related Questions in ABELIAN-GROUPS
- How to construct a group whose "size" grows between polynomially and exponentially.
- $G$ abelian when $Z(G)$ is a proper subset of $G$?
- Invariant factor decomposition of quotient group of two subgroups of $\mathbb{Z}^n$.
- Computing Pontryagin Duals
- Determine the rank and the elementary divisors of each of the following groups.
- existence of subgroups of finite abelian groups
- Theorem of structure for abelian groups
- In the category of abelian groups the coequalizer $\text{Coker}(f, 0)$, $f: A \to B$ is simply $B/f(A)$.
- Commutator subgroup and simple groups
- Are there any interesting examples of functions on Abelian groups that are not homomorphisms?
Related Questions in MODEL-THEORY
- What is the definition of 'constructible group'?
- Translate into first order logic: "$a, b, c$ are the lengths of the sides of a triangle"
- Existence of indiscernible set in model equivalent to another indiscernible set
- A ring embeds in a field iff every finitely generated sub-ring does it
- Graph with a vertex of infinite degree elementary equiv. with a graph with vertices of arbitrarily large finite degree
- What would be the function to make a formula false?
- Sufficient condition for isomorphism of $L$-structures when $L$ is relational
- Show that PA can prove the pigeon-hole principle
- Decidability and "truth value"
- Prove or disprove: $\exists x \forall y \,\,\varphi \models \forall y \exists x \,\ \varphi$
Related Questions in NONSTANDARD-ANALYSIS
- Is this result related to the Taylor series?
- Multiplication property of equality for infinitesimals
- Textbook recommendation for non-standard analysis
- Applying ultrapower construction to the field $\mathbb {Q} $ of rationals
- Physical Calculator with Hyperreals and Multiple Dimensions?
- Epsilon-Delta Continuity in Hyperreals
- Is $\approx$ actually an entourage?
- Nonstandard Extension of the Characteristic Function
- How are infinite sums in nonstandard analysis defined?
- Searching for an example of a theorem wich is "easy" to prove in a classical way but way more difficult in the setting of non-standard analysis.
Trending Questions
- Induction on the number of equations
- How to convince a math teacher of this simple and obvious fact?
- Find $E[XY|Y+Z=1 ]$
- Refuting the Anti-Cantor Cranks
- What are imaginary numbers?
- Determine the adjoint of $\tilde Q(x)$ for $\tilde Q(x)u:=(Qu)(x)$ where $Q:U→L^2(Ω,ℝ^d$ is a Hilbert-Schmidt operator and $U$ is a Hilbert space
- Why does this innovative method of subtraction from a third grader always work?
- How do we know that the number $1$ is not equal to the number $-1$?
- What are the Implications of having VΩ as a model for a theory?
- Defining a Galois Field based on primitive element versus polynomial?
- Can't find the relationship between two columns of numbers. Please Help
- Is computer science a branch of mathematics?
- Is there a bijection of $\mathbb{R}^n$ with itself such that the forward map is connected but the inverse is not?
- Identification of a quadrilateral as a trapezoid, rectangle, or square
- Generator of inertia group in function field extension
Popular # Hahtags
second-order-logic
numerical-methods
puzzle
logic
probability
number-theory
winding-number
real-analysis
integration
calculus
complex-analysis
sequences-and-series
proof-writing
set-theory
functions
homotopy-theory
elementary-number-theory
ordinary-differential-equations
circles
derivatives
game-theory
definite-integrals
elementary-set-theory
limits
multivariable-calculus
geometry
algebraic-number-theory
proof-verification
partial-derivative
algebra-precalculus
Popular Questions
- What is the integral of 1/x?
- How many squares actually ARE in this picture? Is this a trick question with no right answer?
- Is a matrix multiplied with its transpose something special?
- What is the difference between independent and mutually exclusive events?
- Visually stunning math concepts which are easy to explain
- taylor series of $\ln(1+x)$?
- How to tell if a set of vectors spans a space?
- Calculus question taking derivative to find horizontal tangent line
- How to determine if a function is one-to-one?
- Determine if vectors are linearly independent
- What does it mean to have a determinant equal to zero?
- Is this Batman equation for real?
- How to find perpendicular vector to another vector?
- How to find mean and median from histogram
- How many sides does a circle have?
Yes, they are elementarily equivalent - this can be shown via Ehrenfeucht-Fraisse games (where we switch from the group structures to their corresponding relational versions - replace the group operation and the inverse operation with the relations defining their graphs). And by the Keisler-Shelah ultrapower theorem, this means that they have isomorphic ultrapowers (so since $\mathbb{R}$ embeds into all its ultrapowers, $\mathbb{R}$ embeds into some ultrapower of $\mathbb{Q}$).