Can we prove by finitist means (such as with $\text{Con}(\text{ZFC}) \to \text{Con}(\text{ZFC + CH})$; see Kunen's Set Theory, p.8) that $\text{ZFC} \vdash \text{Con}(\text{ZFC}) \Rightarrow \text{ZFC} \vdash \perp$? That is, can we show that if we had any formal ZFC-proof of the sentence $\text{Con}(\text{ZFC})$, that we could transform it by purely finitist ("mechanical") means into a proof of $\text{ZFC} \vdash \perp$? Or do we need a stronger metatheory to get Gödel's second incompleteness theorem? Does this question make sense?
2026-03-25 14:21:23.1774448483
A finitist Gödel second incompleteness theorem
254 Views Asked by Bumbble Comm https://math.techqa.club/user/bumbble-comm/detail At
1
There are 1 best solutions below
Related Questions in LOGIC
- Theorems in MK would imply theorems in ZFC
- What is (mathematically) minimal computer architecture to run any software
- What formula proved in MK or Godel Incompleteness theorem
- Determine the truth value and validity of the propositions given
- Is this a commonly known paradox?
- Help with Propositional Logic Proof
- Symbol for assignment of a truth-value?
- Find the truth value of... empty set?
- Do I need the axiom of choice to prove this statement?
- Prove that any truth function $f$ can be represented by a formula $φ$ in cnf by negating a formula in dnf
Related Questions in SET-THEORY
- Theorems in MK would imply theorems in ZFC
- What formula proved in MK or Godel Incompleteness theorem
- Proving the schema of separation from replacement
- Understanding the Axiom of Replacement
- Ordinals and cardinals in ETCS set axiomatic
- Minimal model over forcing iteration
- How can I prove that the collection of all (class-)function from a proper class A to a class B is empty?
- max of limit cardinals smaller than a successor cardinal bigger than $\aleph_\omega$
- Canonical choice of many elements not contained in a set
- Non-standard axioms + ZF and rest of math
Related Questions in INCOMPLETENESS
- Primitive recursive functions of bounded sum
- Difference between provability and truth of Goodstein's theorem
- Decidability and "truth value"
- What axioms Gödel is using, if any?
- A tricky proof of a Diophantine equation is valid?
- Can all unprovable statements in a given mathematical theory be determined with the addition of a finite number of new axioms?
- Incompleteness Theorem gives a contradiction?
- Is it possible to construct a formal system such that all interesting statements from ZFC can be proven within the system?
- How simple it can be?
- What is finitistic reasoning?
Related Questions in META-MATH
- Should axioms be seen as "building blocks of definitions"?
- Maximum possible reputation? (NOT a meta question)
- Exotic schemes of implications, examples
- Is the style of _Scott 1967_ outdated in discussing continuum hypothesis in a probability space?
- Is there a weak set theory that can prove that the natural numbers is a model of PA?
- How quickly can EFA define things, asymptotically?
- Where to put the dot at the end of a sentence when using cases-figure?
- Set theory that proves that if its consistient, is only proves true things about arithmetic
- Do models (in logic) contain elements?
- Does specifying which variables depend on which other variables strengthen arithmetic?
Trending Questions
- Induction on the number of equations
- How to convince a math teacher of this simple and obvious fact?
- Find $E[XY|Y+Z=1 ]$
- Refuting the Anti-Cantor Cranks
- What are imaginary numbers?
- Determine the adjoint of $\tilde Q(x)$ for $\tilde Q(x)u:=(Qu)(x)$ where $Q:U→L^2(Ω,ℝ^d$ is a Hilbert-Schmidt operator and $U$ is a Hilbert space
- Why does this innovative method of subtraction from a third grader always work?
- How do we know that the number $1$ is not equal to the number $-1$?
- What are the Implications of having VΩ as a model for a theory?
- Defining a Galois Field based on primitive element versus polynomial?
- Can't find the relationship between two columns of numbers. Please Help
- Is computer science a branch of mathematics?
- Is there a bijection of $\mathbb{R}^n$ with itself such that the forward map is connected but the inverse is not?
- Identification of a quadrilateral as a trapezoid, rectangle, or square
- Generator of inertia group in function field extension
Popular # Hahtags
second-order-logic
numerical-methods
puzzle
logic
probability
number-theory
winding-number
real-analysis
integration
calculus
complex-analysis
sequences-and-series
proof-writing
set-theory
functions
homotopy-theory
elementary-number-theory
ordinary-differential-equations
circles
derivatives
game-theory
definite-integrals
elementary-set-theory
limits
multivariable-calculus
geometry
algebraic-number-theory
proof-verification
partial-derivative
algebra-precalculus
Popular Questions
- What is the integral of 1/x?
- How many squares actually ARE in this picture? Is this a trick question with no right answer?
- Is a matrix multiplied with its transpose something special?
- What is the difference between independent and mutually exclusive events?
- Visually stunning math concepts which are easy to explain
- taylor series of $\ln(1+x)$?
- How to tell if a set of vectors spans a space?
- Calculus question taking derivative to find horizontal tangent line
- How to determine if a function is one-to-one?
- Determine if vectors are linearly independent
- What does it mean to have a determinant equal to zero?
- Is this Batman equation for real?
- How to find perpendicular vector to another vector?
- How to find mean and median from histogram
- How many sides does a circle have?
Looking back, I think my original answer wasn't very satisfactory. I believe the following is better.
Yes, GSIT is already as "finitary" as one could reasonably hope.
Throughout, $T$ is the "appropriate" theory we're analyzing and we work in an "appropriate" metatheory $S$. Note that stronger $T$ and $S$ only make things easier. I'll say a bit about what we need from $T$ and $S$ more precisely below, but for now let me just note that $I\Sigma_1$ - a tiny fragment of first-order Peano arithmetic $\mathsf{PA}$, and almost unspeakably weaker than $\mathsf{ZFC}$ - is overkill for both $T$ and $S$.
First, we have some crucial set-up. Here $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is the Godel-Rosser sentence for $T$ ("For every proof of me there is a shorter disproof of me"). There are two specific $T$-proofs which we construct ahead of time (in particular, none of this depends on having a putative $T$-proof of $Con(T)$):
There is a $T$-proof $\pi$ of "If $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is $T$-undecidable then $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is true."
There is an explicit procedure $\Theta$ for producing from a putative $T$-proof of $\mathfrak{G}_T$ a $T$-proof of $\perp$.
Now suppose we had a $T$-proof $\theta$ of $Con(T)$. Consider the following construction $\hat{\Theta}$ (which uses $\Theta$ as a "subroutine"):
Combining $\theta$ with $\pi$ we get a proof $\eta_1$ that $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is $T$-undecidable.
This in turn yields a $T$-proof $\eta_2$ of $\mathfrak{G}_T$ ($T$ argues "if $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is $T$-undecidable then vacuously for every $T$-proof of $\mathfrak{G}_T$ there is a shorter $T$-disproof of $\mathfrak{G}_T$ - which is to say $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is true").
But now consider $\Theta(\eta_2)$.
Now let's dig into the above in a bit more detail.
First, the trivial stuff. Both $\Theta$ and $\hat{\Theta}$ are just explicit algorithms we write down; writing something down isn't problematic for us, we just explicitly do it.
Next, the nontrivial stuff. Obviously we've carried along the assumptions that logic can be satisfactorily "arithmetized" (or "set-ized," or whatever) in $T$ and $S$. Briefly, we need both $S$ and $T$ to satisfy an extremely weak completeness property - essentially, the ability to verify specific computations.
Beyond this, there are really two nontrivial things that happened, and I'll treat them in order:
We asserted the existence of $\pi$.
This relied on a possibly-surprising assumption about $T$ - a very weak one to be sure, but a nontrivial one nonetheless: that $T$ be strong enough to prove that some basic arithmetic operations (like multiplication) are always defined.
The idea behind $\pi$ is this:
Note the "combining all these calculations" bit. There's a significant "length-blowup" here: the length of the $T$-proof of $\neg\mathfrak{G}_T$ we get is naively exponential in the length of the putative $T$-prof of $\mathfrak{G}_T$ we get directly from the assumption that $\mathfrak{G}_T$ is false. This can be brought down significantly, but there's still something nontrivial here. In order for that argument to go through in $T$, we need $T$ to be able to prove the totality of the appropriate arithmetic operations.
And this is unavoidable: we can find very weak theories of arithmetic which can prove their own consistency1, escaping contradiction by being unable to prove that multiplication is always defined (or worse).
We claimed properties of algorithms
Writing down the specific $\Theta$ and $\hat{\Theta}$ isn't fundamentally hard (and hey, suffering builds character). But when we claim that the things we've written down have certain properties, we are implicitly working in some metatheory and may be invoking nontrivial assumptions.
We're going to see exactly the same issue here that we did above. $\hat{\Theta}$ is boring, but $\Theta$ is basically just "$\pi$ in the metatheory." So we also need $S$ to prove the totality of basic arithmetic operations.
And again this is important: working in a weak metatheory can have some very odd results.
1Dan Willard: Self-Verifying Axiom Systems, the Incompleteness Theorem and Related Reflection Principles, Journal of Symbolic Logic 66 (2):536-596 (2001). DOI: 10.2307/2695030, JSTOR, author's website