I'm confused by a variety of elementary non-trivial elementary embedings $j$ we might have. There are 9 "syntactical" possiblities;Here $M$ is a transitive model. I'll name them with a wish that someone would tell me which are impossible, which are not useful and which are strong cardinals-like: $$j_1:L\to L,$$ $$j_2:L\to M,$$ $$j_3:L\to V,$$ $$j_4:M\to L,$$ $$j_5:M\to M,$$ $$j_6:M\to V,$$ $$j_7:V\to L,$$ $$j_8:V\to M,$$ $$j_9:V\to V.$$ What I know: $j_9$ is impossible by Kunen's barrier.$j_1$ implies $M\neq L$,$j_5$ implies $M\neq V$. $j_6$ and $j_8$ are a puzzle for me.
2026-03-30 15:43:34.1774885414
elementary embeddings $j$ in set theory with $V$ and $M$
59 Views Asked by Bumbble Comm https://math.techqa.club/user/bumbble-comm/detail At
1
There are 1 best solutions below
Related Questions in ELEMENTARY-SET-THEORY
- how is my proof on equinumerous sets
- Composition of functions - properties
- Existence of a denumerble partition.
- Why is surjectivity defined using $\exists$ rather than $\exists !$
- Show that $\omega^2+1$ is a prime number.
- A Convention of Set Builder Notation
- I cannot understand that $\mathfrak{O} := \{\{\}, \{1\}, \{1, 2\}, \{3\}, \{1, 3\}, \{1, 2, 3\}\}$ is a topology on the set $\{1, 2, 3\}$.
- Problem with Cartesian product and dimension for beginners
- Proof that a pair is injective and surjective
- Value of infinite product
Related Questions in MODEL-THEORY
- What is the definition of 'constructible group'?
- Translate into first order logic: "$a, b, c$ are the lengths of the sides of a triangle"
- Existence of indiscernible set in model equivalent to another indiscernible set
- A ring embeds in a field iff every finitely generated sub-ring does it
- Graph with a vertex of infinite degree elementary equiv. with a graph with vertices of arbitrarily large finite degree
- What would be the function to make a formula false?
- Sufficient condition for isomorphism of $L$-structures when $L$ is relational
- Show that PA can prove the pigeon-hole principle
- Decidability and "truth value"
- Prove or disprove: $\exists x \forall y \,\,\varphi \models \forall y \exists x \,\ \varphi$
Related Questions in CARDINALS
- Ordinals and cardinals in ETCS set axiomatic
- max of limit cardinals smaller than a successor cardinal bigger than $\aleph_\omega$
- If $\kappa$ is a regular cardinal then $\kappa^{<\kappa} = \max\{\kappa, 2^{<\kappa}\}$
- Intuition regarding: $\kappa^{+}=|\{\kappa\leq\alpha\lt \kappa^{+}\}|$
- On finding enough rationals (countable) to fill the uncountable number of intervals between the irrationals.
- Is the set of cardinalities totally ordered?
- Show that $n+\aleph_0=\aleph_0$
- $COF(\lambda)$ is stationary in $k$, where $\lambda < k$ is regular.
- What is the cardinality of a set of all points on a line?
- Better way to define this bijection [0,1) to (0,1)
Related Questions in LARGE-CARDINALS
- Target of a superstrong embedding
- Possibility of preserving the ultrafilter on $\mathcal{P}_{\kappa}(\lambda)$ in V[G] after forcing with a <$\kappa$ directed closed poset?
- If $G$ is $P$-generic over $V$ and $G^*$ is $j''P$-generic over $M$ then $j$ can be extended to $V[G]$.
- Normality of some generic ultrafilter
- Does ZFC + the Axiom of Constructibility imply the nonexistence of inaccessible cardinals?
- Inaccessibility in L vs. Inaccessibility in ZFC
- Proof that the cofinality of the least worldly cardinal is $\omega$
- Inaccessible side-effects in MK
- Definition of an $\omega$-huge cardinal
- Regarding Extenders
Trending Questions
- Induction on the number of equations
- How to convince a math teacher of this simple and obvious fact?
- Find $E[XY|Y+Z=1 ]$
- Refuting the Anti-Cantor Cranks
- What are imaginary numbers?
- Determine the adjoint of $\tilde Q(x)$ for $\tilde Q(x)u:=(Qu)(x)$ where $Q:U→L^2(Ω,ℝ^d$ is a Hilbert-Schmidt operator and $U$ is a Hilbert space
- Why does this innovative method of subtraction from a third grader always work?
- How do we know that the number $1$ is not equal to the number $-1$?
- What are the Implications of having VΩ as a model for a theory?
- Defining a Galois Field based on primitive element versus polynomial?
- Can't find the relationship between two columns of numbers. Please Help
- Is computer science a branch of mathematics?
- Is there a bijection of $\mathbb{R}^n$ with itself such that the forward map is connected but the inverse is not?
- Identification of a quadrilateral as a trapezoid, rectangle, or square
- Generator of inertia group in function field extension
Popular # Hahtags
second-order-logic
numerical-methods
puzzle
logic
probability
number-theory
winding-number
real-analysis
integration
calculus
complex-analysis
sequences-and-series
proof-writing
set-theory
functions
homotopy-theory
elementary-number-theory
ordinary-differential-equations
circles
derivatives
game-theory
definite-integrals
elementary-set-theory
limits
multivariable-calculus
geometry
algebraic-number-theory
proof-verification
partial-derivative
algebra-precalculus
Popular Questions
- What is the integral of 1/x?
- How many squares actually ARE in this picture? Is this a trick question with no right answer?
- Is a matrix multiplied with its transpose something special?
- What is the difference between independent and mutually exclusive events?
- Visually stunning math concepts which are easy to explain
- taylor series of $\ln(1+x)$?
- How to tell if a set of vectors spans a space?
- Calculus question taking derivative to find horizontal tangent line
- How to determine if a function is one-to-one?
- Determine if vectors are linearly independent
- What does it mean to have a determinant equal to zero?
- Is this Batman equation for real?
- How to find perpendicular vector to another vector?
- How to find mean and median from histogram
- How many sides does a circle have?
For simplicity I work throughout in an appropriate class theory, say $\mathsf{NBG}$ or $\mathsf{MK}$. Also, I'll blackbox the fact that "There is a nonprincipal countably closed ultrafilter on some uncountable cardinal" is equivalent to "There is a measurable cardinal." This is a good exercise if you haven't seen it before! Also, Hamkins/Kirmayer/Perlmutter's Generalizations of the Kunen inconsistency is a good general source on this topic.
First, note that since $\mathsf{V=L}$ is a first-order sentence, if either $A$ or $B$ is $L$ and $A$ is elementarily embeddable into $B$ then $A=B=L$. So $(1)$, $(2)$, and $(4)$ are equivalent to each other while $(3)$ and $(7)$ are outright inconsistent. Also, $(1)$ is equivalent to $(5)$ since if $j:M\rightarrow M$ is nontrivial elementary then so is $\hat{j}: L^M=L\rightarrow L^M=L$.
Next up we have $(6)$. When I originally wrote this answer I didn't know anything about this possibility, but today I ran into a very valuable source (see below). As earlier, an embedding $M\rightarrow V$ restricts to an embedding $L\rightarrow L$, so $(6)$ is at least as strong as $0^\sharp$. The obvious question (especially in light of the next section of this answer!) is the relationship between $(6)$ and a measurable cardinal. As it turns out, $(6)$ is rather weak, at least in consistency strength, unless one adds additional demands on the embedding or the source model $M$. See the beginning of Section $2$ of Vickers/Welch, On elementary embeddings from an inner model to the universe (or the rest of the paper more generally).
Now we get to the fun stuff. The existence of an embedding of type $j_8$ is exactly equivalent to a measurable cardinal - and this is indeed the motivating observation which begins the whole study of elementary embeddings of inner models, so it is worth understanding well! Here's a sketch of the argument (due to Scott):
One direction is easy: if $\mathcal{U}$ is a countably closed nonprincipal ultrafilter on an uncountable cardinal $\kappa$, then (utilizing Scott's trick to keep everything well-defined) we get an elementary embedding $\mathfrak{j}_\mathcal{U}$ from $V$ to the ultrapower $\prod V/\mathcal{U}$; by countable closure the latter is well-founded (and is easily seen to be set-like), and so it is definably-in-$V$ isomorphic to a unique inner model $M$. We usually conflate $\mathfrak{j}_\mathcal{U}$ with the induced elementary embedding of $V$ into this $M$.
The other direction is a bit trickier: an arbitrary nontrivial elementary $j:V\rightarrow M$ might not "come from" an ultrafilter! However, it still implies the existence of an ultrafilter of the above type. Specifically, let $\kappa=crit(j)$ and consider $$\mathcal{U}_j:=\{A\subseteq\kappa: \kappa\in j(A)\}.$$ Then $\mathcal{U}_j$ is nonprincipal and countably closed.
One consequence of the above argument is that the a-priori-class-referring principle "There is a nontrivial elementary embedding of $V$ into some inner model $M$" is actually expressible in set theory alone. At the same time, it's important to note that we generally lose information in the $j\mapsto\mathcal{U}_j$ construction, in the sense that $\mathfrak{j}_{\mathcal{U}_j}\not=j$ in general. Figuring out how to "approximate" elementary embeddings by set-sized blobs of data is a general theme in inner model theory; for example, look at the notion of an extender, which is a generalization of an ultrafilter which lets us faithfully capture more embeddings.